Ultima Thule

In ancient times the northernmost region of the habitable world - hence, any distant, unknown or mysterious land.

Monday, April 11, 2005

Whither the Bushes and the Republican Party? Aussiegirl and Bonnieblueflag exchange some emails

BonnieBlueFlag and Aussiegirl exchange emails and ruminate on the recent love-fest between the Bushes and Bill Clinton

In light of the recent warming of relations between Bill Clinton and the Bushes, and the news that Bill Clinton will now be a special envoy to oversee (argh, gasp. cough, cough -- sorry -- that was hard to get past) the spending of billions of tsunami aid dollars (why am I seeing a picture of the Clinton Laundry -- er Library in my mind?) -- Aussiegirl and BonnieBlueFlag exchanged the following series of emails -- ruminations and speculations of two Republicans about where are we now, and where Bush is leading us, and what his plan might be.

BonnieBlueFlag said:

I knew all along that Clinton had his eye on Kofi Annan's job, and he must be salivating now that Kofi is in so much trouble.� So this 2 year envoy job is just a stepping stone for Clinton.

As to why GW is being so cooperative in this, I cannot say.� I am not happy about the Bush, Clinton, Bush connection at all.� Could GW have an ulterior motive in his support of Clinton getting what he wants?� Could Clinton seemingly getting his own desires, keep him off the campaign trail in '06 or '08, because he will be hamstrapped in criticizing Bush, if and when he appears with or without Hillary?

I firmly believe that Bill would sell Hillary down the river in a second, if by doing so, he would get what he wants!� Bill knows that Hillary would do the same to him, if he stood in her way of getting what she wanted.

Are Karl Rove and GW Bush playing a game of "Divide and Conquer?"� If they can put a muzzle on Bill Clinton before any future election, the Republicans would stand a much better chance of winning.

This is all speculation on my part of curse, not because I don't want to believe that GW has gone over to the dark side, but because I do not want to be one of those foolish people who have "misunderestimated" him in the past.

One small aside . . . Bill Clinton cannot keep his mouth shut!� He is talking, talking all the time.� When he is included in something like the Air Force One ride to Rome, he will undoubtedly inadvertently let little nuggets slip about Hillary's campaign plans, etc.� He will feel the need to brag about the advice that he has given her, or someone else in the Democratic party.

Bill Clinton has a head full of FBI files, and an additional dozen years of experience with the politicians in the beltway.� You just know that Karl and GW are lulling him into revealing things that he shouldn't.� But, he needs to be in GW's good graces to get what he wants, so he will try to impress and dazzle GW for his own purposes.

Aussiegirl said:

What concerns me is that Karl Rove may be being too clever by half thinking he can play Bill Clinton and Hillary off against each other, or to coopt them to cooperate with the Bushes, or to pick his brains, etc.

There is no way in heaven that Bill isn't going to turn on a dime and vilify and betray the Bushes if Hillary runs - if they think they are lulling him and tricking him -- I think they will fall into a long line of people who have suffered the betrayal that these two completely unscrupulous people are capable of. "He who sups with the devil must use a long spoon."

I'm not comfortable with these clever games. And I'm thinking with the increasing division in the ranks of Congress among Republicans, that this whole second term may be coming unravelled.

Bush may be taking the Republican party back to the party of the elites, the moderates, and the country club Republicans, where his father and others are comfortable. Frankly, I don't think that Bush is really that conservative -- as people have wondered all along - since he started the "compassionate conservative" business. A fat lot of good it has done him in garnering any democratic cooperation, etc.

Maybe he's trying to make Bill Clinton into another friend like that head of the democrat senate in Texas who started out as his enemy and ended up as his friend. But Bill is no one's friend -- people who know him say that he is brilliant at convincing people that he is completely on their side and loves them dearly, and then he is able to convince the next person he sees who has completely opposite views that he feels the same way about them.

Everyone always comments how fatally charming, and ingratiating and sincere he seems. And he probably is --- he believes and feels whatever he needs to at the moment in order to get along - it's a trait of people who have parents who are alcoholics -- but then he does exactly as he pleases when it's up to him.

I think the Bushes may feel that they are using and manipulating him -- and influencing him -- and even maybe some starry eyed idea that they will convert him and he will see the light -- when in reality the Clintons will end up using Bush. Anyone who thinkshey can use or outfox these people or trick them is setting themselves up for a fall. Did you listen to the radio shows today and hear the disgusting things Hillary said just the other day about Bush? I noticed that one of the things she said was words to the effect of -- "Now Bush is misrepresenting that my husband agrees with him on Social Security -- well let me tell you -- I know Bill Clinton -- etc. etc." -- to tumultuous jeers and catcalls as her voice grew more hateful and dripping with contempt.

Yes, we are all afraid to fall into that group of people who "misunderestimated" Bush -- so we go along with everything he does, no matter how inexplicable, saying -- "He's got a secret plan that we don't know about."

But he continues to do those inexplicable things and they keep becoming more and more inexplicable. The border issue is getting worse -- and Bush never condemns or even acknowledges that there is a problem, instead he labels law-abiding citizens who are merely carrying out surveillance activities as "vigilantes". He is the one who inexplicably cut the number of border guards authorized by Congress. He has yet to explain the "secret plan" behind that. Now we hear that a "one-time" amnesty for all illegal aliens is a possibility.

So, I'll tell you -- I am beginning to view him with a slightly jaundiced and careful eye. I think that possibly Karl Rove, in his desire to make the Republican party a majority party by appealing to Hispanics with the inaction on the border and other issues, will instead alienate the conservative base which will look elsewhere in the next election -- to a third party candidate -- thereby sealing Hillary as the candidate who comes into office in a minority 3-way vote.

And, frankly, this Social Security road show has been a disaster, even I don't think it's a good idea. And it annoys me that with all the pressing problems we face, like getting those judicial nominees through Congress, that he is wasting his time on this. Granted, it is a problem that must be eventually fixed, but we have more pressing problems right now, we don't have the luxury of having our president on the road like some perpetual campaign, talking retirement acounts when our borders are falling apart, and the Republicans in congress are in complete disarray in how to present a united front to the daily assaults by the democrats. Bush seems to be curiously disengaged in all that. Like he doesn't care about it at all. And there seems to be no coordination between the White House and Congressional Republicans to ensure enaction of his agenda.

And once again, I have always been frustrated with his inability to go directly to the people -- except in those scripted town hall meetings, which TV doesn't cover, and are full of his supporters anyway. Reagan could go on TV and talk right over the heads of the media and go right to the people, so his bills were always winning despite a democrat majority. We now have a Republican majority and they cower daily before the democrats, begging forgiveness for their very sin of being Republicans and in the majority.

Let me say that I do not think that those low approval numbers are a good sign -- to me that means that now that the Iraqi situation is winding down (and we will be withdrawing from there very fast), and people do not feel particularly threatened by terrorism, that they are seeing a lack of leadership and movement on domestic issues -- or a seeming lack of cohesion and cooperation. And I think he is fast losing conservative votes -- I think Karl Rove has a disregard for conservatives and Christians, frankly, and I think to them we are a bunch of people who have to be appeased so we'll turn out to vote, but that he needs to reach out to the middle. Reagan didn't reach to the middle -- he reached out to the average American.

So, I agree with you, and I'm almost ashamed of my criticism of Bush -- but I hear even Rush today is feeling some of the same thoughts, even though he hates to admit it. We can't just blame democrats for everything. We don't do the Republicans, or even our own president a favor when we become nothing more than a cheering section which blindly applauds no matter what he does -- that way lies disaster -- for the party -- there has to be criticism -- and accountability. He is not perfect -- and he cannot be allowed to bask forever in our adulation of him. I'm not comfortable doing that. It makes me uneasy.

BonnieBlueFlag said:

I very much agree that Bill Clinton could turn on a dime, if Hillary is running in the 2008 election for president; one of his top two favorite goals is to be back in the White House any way he can get there, the other being the Secretary General of the UN.� I still maintain that their dreams of power has Bill as Secretary General and Hillary as the President simultaneously.� Talk about a "Power Couple."� Imagine the harm they could do in those positions together.

However, I also think that they could sell each other out, to get what they as individuals want.� I would be hard pressed to think of two more ambitious greedy self-centered people, without a doubt their match maker was indeed the "Devil that now sups with GW."

Your point about GW trying to make Bill Clinton into a friend, in the fashion of his Democratic friend back in Texas, is very well taken.� I remember Ted Kennedy kicking his tush, after GW tried to be gracious with an invitation to the White House.� I assumed that he had learned his lesson from that experience, but perhaps you are right, and GW is just to naive to handle the dragons that live and work in the moat around the White House.

While I do not wish to be numbered among those who have "misunderestimated" GW, neither am I willing to give him a free pass.� I am trying to figure out what GW is doing in multiple areas of concern.� I never thought that as a former Governor of Texas, he would leave those Americans living on the border to fend for themselves.� I do not see his compassionate side, when he allows illegal aliens to terrorize our own citizens in a dozen different ways.

I do believe that Social Security needs to be fixed, and I just shake my heard in disbelief as I watch the Democrats do everything that they can to block the attempt to do so.� The same Democrats that bellowed, "Social Security is going broke." just a few years ago.

No outside enemy could harm us more than the Democrats do every day, especially now that they are willing to sell their souls to "that same Devil" to get their power back, and to hell with the rest of us.

GW is playing a very high stakes poker game, and I haven't a clue what cards he is holding.� I have been nervous from the day that he sat down at the table and picked up his chips.

The hand being played out in the Senate is an entirely different matter.� The Republicans who are in the majority, keep whining and whimpering about how they cannot change the rules, because they might be in the minority again one day.

So in essence they are telling us, the voters, that they cannot act on what we put them there to do, because some of them may lose an election somewhere down the road.� They are so intimidated by the Democrats that they are too frightened to do their job.� They are on the verge of wasting one of the most important four year terms in our government's history.

Aussiegirl says:



At 10:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bonnie said, "They" (meaning [spit, spit] Republicans) "are so intimidated by the Democrats that they are too frightened to do their job."
Such sweetness and naivete is refreshing in this cynical age.
Apparently you accept that (spit, spit) Republicans actually believe something, and apparently that the something the (spit, spit) Republicans believe is in line some way with the real people outside the Beltway.
Gosh, how innocent.
Republicans are only slightly less corrupt than those in the other vile party; Republicans are only slightly less often fascistic in their power-grabbing approach than those in the other vile party.
As they themselves see it, "their job" is to further the power and size of the feral government and, not so incidentally, further their own individual power and enhance their own access to wealth and more power.
Regardless of any pro-freedom rhetoric W is spouting, his acts are those of an imperialistic fascist.
See his war of aggression against Iraq; see his USA PATRIOT Act (and, God!, what a misnomer that is); see his appointment of an attorney general who not only condones but urges the use of torture; see his trial balloon then denial about reinstating the military draft.
Even Rush Limbaugh used to say the Clinton administration was a continuation of the first Bush administration, and that the first Bush administration was NOT a continuation of the Reagan administration.
At bottom, there is not enough real difference between the two old parties, even though there are occasional individuals within the GOP ranks who do seem to support the American concept of liberty, of individual freedom.
But all my life, the Republican Party has been run by the Rockefeller wing, the Eastern Establishment wing, of fascists and globalists and power- and money-mongers.
Even Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan, no matter their own preferences and philosophical orientation, were ultimately dominated and thwarted by the statists of the Republican hierarchy.
You said, "So in essence they are telling us, the voters, that they cannot act on what we put them there to do ..."
Bonnie, that is what they have ALWAYS done -- just what THEY want, and phooey on what we want, and an even bigger phooey on what is right, or even constitutional.
One reason there will be plenty of room in Heaven for you and me and even for Aus (actually especially for Aus, but I have to tease) is there will be no overcrowding because of too many Republicans.
No, Bonnie, you might not even make it if you don't remember what the Bible says: "Put not your faith in princes," meaning "politicians."
All decent people who put ANY faith in the Republican (spit, spit) Party are being used and if they want to continue decent, they -- meaning you and Aus -- better get out now.
Yours for peace and liberty,
Michael Morrison

At 11:12 PM, Anonymous blackminorcapullets said...

Bonnie said, "They" (meaning [spit, spit] Republicans) "are so intimidated by the Democrats that they are too frightened to do their job."
"Such sweetness and naivete is refreshing in this cynical age.
Apparently you accept that (spit, spit) Republicans actually believe something, and apparently that the something the (spit, spit) Republicans believe is in line some way with the real people outside the Beltway.
Gosh, how innocent."

Yes - the two party system is a terrible , terrible means of govt but it is the best, is'nt it?

And what's up with the fascist under every bed? Its so nostalgic to see Mother Goose Marxism is still around - reminds me of the 60's.

Yes, the US Military never did anything - except get rid of Hitler, Communists, and their ilk that have liquidated 120 million in the last 100 years.

At 12:58 AM, Blogger BonnieBlueFlag said...

Dear Michael.

Please allow me to get you a towel, so you can dry yourself from all that "spit, spit, spit," but I do appreciate that you waited until I was out of the room, to "spit, spit spit" all over the place. By the way, you did omit a "spit, spit" on one of your Republicans, but I will assume that it was just an oversight.

I'm glad that you find my sweetness and naivete so refreshing. It has been a little while since I have had the opportunity to practice the fine art of coquettishness, thank you for your expressions of appreciation.

However, I cannot imagine what I may have said to give you the impression that I thought the Republicans had ever considered "We the people," a priority. No, their first priority is their next election, be it two, four or six years into the future, followed by their personal accumulation of wealth and power. As to their interest in an increase in the power and size of government, I would not give that the importance that you do. I think that the increase in the power and size of government automatically happens, when our politicians use that government to "buy" or "influence" votes for their next election.

For how many years did we hear the term "Gridlock" over and over again, especially by the Republicans. They could not get this done or that accomplished, because of the gridlock.

So now that we have a Republican House, Senate and Presidency, voila, no more gridlock!

Oh wait, we cannot bring the judicial nominees to the Senate floor for a vote, because the Democrats are making us abide by a Filibuster rule, that Robert Byrd dreamed up one night after a Klan meeting.

Or, we cannot get anything accomplished, because the President isn't here to hold our hands. Certainly you don't expect any of us to take responsibility for what goes on in the Senate.

Okay, where is the President? Out on the road trying to get support to fix Social Security during this one and only opportunity we will have to do so, before it becomes the "monster that ate Cleveland, Miami, New York, Los Angeles and everything in between."

No first term president will ever touch it, and most second term presidents will be more concerned about their legacy, i.e., Clinton. I would much prefer that it be handled now, than when Hillary or Kerry is president, and the Democrats have lied, cheated and stole their way back into power.

Gee, Michael, I would sure hate to miss out on a Heaven populated by Bloggers with wings and halos, it sounds like a great party. If being skeptical of the promises of politicians will guarantee my ticket of admission, I think I'll make it there after all.

It was nice to meet you, and good to talk to you when you weren't spitting. Aussiegirl and I look forward to seeing you again. Y'all come back now. Next time I'll bake you a square pie from an old Tennessee family recipe.


At 8:51 AM, Blogger Michael Morrison said...

To Miss Bonnie, two points: If you're from Tennessee, honey, you don't have to "practice the fine art of coquettishness," 'cause it comes natural.
Second, if you're gonna bake me a square pie, may I request peach? But blackberry will do fine, too.
To Blackminorcapullets: What on earth are you talking about?
Was that supposed to be a response to something? If so, to what?
Love and peace and, most important, freedom to all,

At 11:23 AM, Blogger Aussiegirl said...

Wow!! The twin gals from Ukraine and Tennessee done lit a brushfire!! I was wondering what would get the political juices flowing on UT -- now I know.

Ah yes -- Miss Bonnie always acquits herself beautifully, so I need add nothing to her fine remarks -- and I personally , Miss Bonnie, love blueberry -- next time you're a'baking.

To my friend Blackminorcapulets I say -- I understand your comments completely, as we both come from countries who were liberated by that American Fascist Imperialism and we thank God daily for it, and all the men who laid down their lives to give us a chance to live in freedom. Miss Bonnie's father is a veteran of WWII and many of the campaigns to bring down true Fascist Imperialism. What he saw there, we can probably never even imagine, although we can look at the History Channel and get some idea of how horrible those battles were. May they all rest in the loveliest spots in Heaven for having made such a sacrifice. And may I add that my family personally was liberated and rescued by these good American GI's at the end of the war in Germany, when they were nearly dying of starvation. Who knows if Miss Bonnie's father was not among those exhausted and good men who saved my family.

And to my friend Mr. Morrison, who made so many good points, but I think lost me on the American Imperialist Fascist wars of aggression -- and also on the Attorney General who condones torture -- let me say that first of all we can debate that point from now until doomsday, but I'll tell you this, for animals who saw off the heads of innocent hostages while shouting "God is Great" and for others who are plotting the mass murder of innocents, I say -- more torture and more abuse is not only appropriate -- it is mandatory for the completion of our mission. We are at war -- and I don't imagine the enemy is as kind as kind and considerate and has as many scruples as we do. And what was "inflicted" at Abu Graib (if that is what is at issue) is nothing more than standard practice of putting psychological pressure on a detainee to talk. One cannot even compare the one with the other.
If applying some unpleasant pressure like sleep deprivation, sitting in uncomfortable positions, wearing a pair of Hanes for Her on the head, or being stripped naked and humiliated is torture, I say they are not being strong enough. If one mass suicide bombing of innocent Iraqis and American GI's can be prevented by inflicting some discomfort on a terrorist who has knowledge of the attack or the whereabouts of the plotters then it was well worth it.

Other than that I tend to agree with you, as does Miss Bonnie, that the Republicans and the Democrats are mostly in it for the power and the money and the aggrandizement of the Federal Government. With a few notable exceptions, of course -- there are even honorable men among politicians.

I think where I am becoming disillusioned is with President Bush, whom I saw as someone cast in the mold of Reagan, but I begin to suspect in this second term that he is not quite what I thought, or perhaps he has let his political advisors get him off track. If nothing else, "we da people", must keep the pressure on them to do the right thing. And the conservatives who truly believe in principles do have a stronger voice than we used to -- we have talk radio (if it does not fall into the trap of being an eternal cheering squad and adulation station for the Republican party, regardless of how it performs in reality) -- we have blogs now -- where citizens can express themselves and reach a much wider audience than the neighbor over the back fence or the water cooler at work. And therein lies our power. Corruption, greed, the lust for power and the need for public adulation has always been with us, like the poor, but we must nevertheless never cease fighting for what is right.

Human endeavors always fall short of our dreams, but this country is still great, and still the best place to live on earth, and that's coming from someone whose family has tasted the worst that political systems have to offer.

Unfortunately we do not have the luxury of an alternate system, and as flawed as it is, we must find ways to put pressure on the politicos to accomplish at least a little of the good that we hope for when we elect them.

As Churchill said -- democracy is the worst form of government -- except for all the others.

Well, now -- to all our friends gathered here with their soapboxes I say -- thanks for coming and sharing -- we have much in common - and much to discuss at length -- and be sure to come again -- and -- see y'all in Heaven -- and I just know that one of Miss Bonnie's pies will be the preferred dessert every day for eternity.

At 4:24 PM, Blogger BonnieBlueFlag said...

Thank you my dear friend, Aussiegirl, for your lovely comments.

I really enjoyed meeting your good friend, Mr. Morrison. He certainly has a way with words, but he does seem to have a slight lisp. I noticed it most when he would say the word "Republican."

Thank you also for coming to the defense of my beloved, John Ashcroft. He has been so maligned and misunderstood, and he is such a good and loyal man. Once the MSM press decided he would be "good pickin's," they did everything they could to misrepresent him, and to make his life miserable.

It was also very nice of you to mention my Daddy and his time spent fighting Nazis during WWII. He was with the 90th Infantry Division, nicknamed the "Tough Ombres." They have been recognized as one of the "Liberation Units," at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. The 90th Infantry Division

Okay, now let me see if I have y'all's request for pies correct.

Mr. Morrison would like two square pies, 1 peach and 1 blackberry.

Aussiegirl would like 1 blueberry pie, but she neglected to say if she wanted a round or a square pie.

Blackminorcapulets has not as yet placed an order, but there is still time. It will be a while yet before the peaches are ready, but I will be able to pick the berries a little earlier.


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